Antispe? WTF?!?

I’ve been noticing recently on indymedia reports of a new group that has formed calling itself Antispe. It is a militant animal rights organization that appears to model itself heavily on Antifa, right down to pinching the Antifa logo but ruining the colour scheme.
I’ve had a wee butchers at their website and can’t seem to find anything other than an extremely vague statement of intent that says that they aim to militantly oppose ‘speciesism’. Now seeing as they have modelled themselves upon Antifa I have to wonder what they mean by direct action.
Antifa have a great reputation for valiantly and violently confronting Fascism wherever it rears its ugly head. i wonder if this is a plan of antispe?
If not why have they modelled their aesthetic so closely upon antifa? Are they planning on kicking the shit out of people who choose to eat meat? I can unfortunately see this being the case with at least some people who call themselves antispe, the animal rights movement has never had that much of a reputation for sanity now has it?
If I’m wrong then hopefully someone will correct me like but I doubt that I am.

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Posted on May 11, 2008, in Politics and tagged . Bookmark the permalink. 25 Comments.

  1. green is black is the new red and black, or even “greenisthenewred”. The idea is far from to model ourselves on antifa, but instead their ideological foundation of “agaisnt capitalism and against the state”. I don’t know where you get the idea of “kicking the shit out of people who choose to eat meat”…if you could provide a source for us that would be great!

    In over 40 years of militant direct action from the ALF and other cells there has never been a report of someone having their head kicked in because they ate meat…

  2. I get the idea as your imagery and rhetoric are based upon Antifa who physically confront Fascists i.e kick the shit out of them.
    Okay there have been incidents of militant vegans physically attacking folk bcauuse of their diet, mostly though this seemed to be straight edge punks in the US.
    Oh and what about Anti-Vivisection activists who attacked the guy that runs HLS? Not that I don’t think the guy deserves it but that is a case of an animal rightsist using violence.
    Animal Rights as a movement attracts its fair share of nutters who act in the most abominable and counter productive manner, digging up someones Granny for instance.
    I also think it’s pretty lame that antispe has pinched so much of the aesthetic of Antifa and not attempted to develop something of it’s own aesthetic.
    Is it a lack of imagination or a cynical attempt to piggy back on the “street-cred” of Antifa?

  3. Sorry but I would never believe that someone seriously attacked anyone because of their diet – mainly because their are better ways to damage animal industries, and obviously, as you gave an example of, activists would target those directly abusing animals or profiting from their torture…not those who are accomplises.

    Just to point out for example, when we have autonomous blocs against vivisection, we may well be alongside meat eaters who are antivivisectionists – thats why despite our militant & abolitionist stance, we wouldn’t attack those who could be or are on our side.

    The idea of antispe being derived from antifa is nothing to do with us, its from activists in Germany and has been around Europe for a long time. Surely you must see it as an inevitability that where antifa came from, was also going to evolve and diversify from anti-discrimination/bigotry based action to antispeciesist?

    Afterall; “You can’t be an meat-eating environmentalist”, so what else should the green anarchist falg/colours represent? Also; “None of us all are – until all are free”.

  4. Well, I remember it happening back when I was a punk.

    And no I don’t see it as in any way inevitable that Antifa should develop into anything beyond a force to combat fascism, not protecting the fluffy little animals.

    “You can’t be an environmentalist and eat meat” – what utter tosh. Most environmentalists I know eat meat, hell I used to be a meat eating hunt sab and anti-vivisection activist. A vegan/vegetarian diet is in no way more sustainable than an omnivorous one. The environmental impact of eating a lamb from 20-30 miles away is far, far less than eating soy or tofu shipped in from the Americas or far east.

    Also so far the only ‘action’ I’ve seen antispe claim responsibility for is screwing up the veggie -pride march in France. The French culture is very much orientated towards eating meat and this demo was part of a campaign to bring veggie/vegan diets into the mainstream. They had to some extent been succesful. Antispe’s actions on the march, occupying some fast food outlets, will bring about a larger police presence on a demo that had no need of becoming more militant.
    The actions of antispe that day did more to harm the reputation of those who have herbivorous diets and made all veggies look like the lunatic fringe.

    If you want to actually help animals then take a tip from the ALFs book and actually rescues some of the wee critters.

    I still don’t get the point of antispe beyond a market in ‘cool’ patches for punk kids who do next to sweet fuck all anyway.

  5. I completely agree…

    “And no I don’t see it as in any way inevitable that Antifa should develop into anything beyond a force to combat fascism, not protecting the fluffy little animals.”

    As obviously this is the speciesist way that many vegetarians who are part of antifa think, and its useless and doesn’t solve anything! This is the entire concept we are trying to break, the idea that people go vegan because they like “cute animals”, or particular species. Its like saying that antiracists fight for a race(s), but not all, which is racist!!!

    Veganarchists are aware that just like human animals, non-humans feel pain, suffering, harm, neglect and torture just like we do – THEY ARE ALL INDIVIDUALS – so what right do we have to determine their fate? The exact same right that empowers government to determine ours; hierarchy. Therefore there will be no justice until all are free.

    For reasons why to be an environmentalist, and not consume animal products, see: http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:gcAJi6CZeKUJ:www.climatecamp.org.uk/linkedresources/vegcc.pdf+climate+camp+vegan&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=uk (It’s the leaflet text from CLIMATE CAMP).

    Its all interconnected; Earth & Animal Liberation.
    Animal Liberation = Human & Non-Human Rights!
    There’s no Earth liberation without Animal liberation.
    Animals are what populate this Earth and we are Them!!

  6. Animals are not individuals in the same sense that human beings are individuals. We have reason and intellect, animals do not.
    Animals are a food source for our species as well as for other species. Humans have eaten meat since before we, as a species, left the cradle of Africa.
    If an individual wants to not eat animal products that is their choice, same as it is my choice to consume animals.

    I have no doubt that there are individuals within Antifa that are veggie/vegan but their choice of diet has nothing to do with combating the threat Fascism poses for the working class. A non-vegan diet, the meat industry, vivisection et al poses no threat to the class. (FYI I am strictly opposed to vivisection and am no fan of factory farming either)

    Antifa is not an ‘anti-racist’ organization, it is an anti-fascist organization which works to combat Fascism (which is pretty much racist by it’s nature obviously.
    Being as Antifa, in the UK at least, is made up of class struggle types surely antispe should be made up of those who need to fight against ‘speciesism’. i.e animals, oh that’s right animals don’t organize themselves do they? They need someone to do it for them the poor wee mites.

    Oh and you do NOT have to eat rabbit food to be an environmentalist.

  7. Quick point as well, posting links to things from the climate camp is not going to convince me in any way of your argument.
    I love easyjet me. 🙂

  8. Ok I’m not going to answer what you’ve written because most of it are just empty arguments or degrading…

    “Humans have eaten meat since before we, as a species, left the cradle of Africa.”

    Non-whites were slaves for centuries, but this did not make it right did it, nor did it for women or children not to have rights, just because they haven’t had them before.

    “We have reason and intellect, animals do not.”

    This was the basis of opposition against people with disabilities to have rights, a disgusting arugment.

    “They need someone to do it for them the poor wee mites.”

    You sound like the KKK, early 19th century, commenting on the liberation of slaves to be a joke.

    Its interesting how discrimination has many levels that are part of the same platform – hierarchy.

    P.S – If animals aren’t individuals, then what are the “things” that suffer from pain and suffering? Unless of course you deny that non-human animals are capable of those emotions of course…

  9. God that is such an old, and frankly insulting, argument. That eating animals is anything like slavery or the oppression of women

    The thing about reason and intellect is that we, humans do all have them. Animals do not. Well not in any meaningful way.
    I agree that the meat industry as it stands is appalling and would quite reasonably hope that in an Anarchist world that animals would be treated a whole lot better. They would still be food though.
    I love the way that you keep on vaguely accusing me of something akin to racism when veggie/vegan is, from an ethical perspective, a completely western moralism that has very little to do with the rest of the world.
    Pesky meat eating darkies. 🙂
    OK I was being rather flippant there but your ethical construct is far more euro-centric than I think you realise. I know that you are now going to mention the largely vegetarian diets held by folk in China and by Hindu’s. These people diets though are not the result of an ethical choice but are a cultural and religious thing.
    I do not object to people choosing not to eat meat, in fact I have a fair bit of respect for my vegan friends. The thing is though is that it is a lifestyle choice.
    I also vaguely support actions that involve the liberation of animals from factory farms and vivisection labs.
    Antispe though rubs me up the wrong way as it is a cynical appropriation of the Antifa aesthetic yet has absolutely no connection to the class struggle.

    By the way, I would like to know your thoughts concerning antispe types disruption of the veggie pride march in France.

  10. “God that is such an old, and frankly insulting, argument. That eating animals is anything like slavery…”

    So if a human animal is chained, tortured to perform and abused, we would consider it slavery yes? Or at least this was confirmed, so you shouldn’t need to answer that one.

    But if non-human animals are made to do so, in the name of an ‘animal circus’ (for example) it’s not slavery?

    This would be even more odd, as slavery is the concept of being held against ones will, for involuntary services, enforced labor, etc. We all know that humans can’t be granted permission to own non-humans, by the individuals in question, so what right do we have to imprison them?

    Please look up the definition of slavery, as your concerns are a generalisation, not an insulting argument. The definition of slavery is NOT confined only to animals that are human…but applies to all creatures.

    Unless of course thinking of them being in “prisons” is also something you find an insulting argument. I guess if you did, then you’d think that animals can’t also be subject to; murder (death), suffering, neglect, imprisonment or slavery, because they are all human concepts, therefore can only be applied to humans?

    Unfortunately, it’s like the idea that “rights” can only be given to humans, because humans invented them. But infact, WHITE MEN invented rights, which was why they said non-whites and women shouldn’t have them.

  11. Stranger yet, you support the liberation of (some) non-human animals, but won’t allow the actions to be compared to the liberation of human animals? Something I will never understand! Why? Because you would no doubt compare the liberation of human animals (anti-slavery movement) to the civil rights movement (who doesn’t!) or the suffrajets movement……………

  12. Slavery was disgusting as it affected human beings, animals are food and can also be used as pack animals like horses and what not or as guard like dogs.
    The treatment of animals in circuses is disgusting but it still not the same as slavery. Animals simply do not suffer in the same way that humans do They can not intellectualise the suffering the way that people do. Or are you comparing black Africans to animals?
    Like I said the main thing about antispe that winds me up is its appropriation of Antifa imagery yet has nothing to do with the fight against fascism or the self-defence of the working class.
    Also what have the american civil rights movement and the sufferagettes got to do with this?

  13. Link between what the civil rights movement had in common with animal rights movement…?

    “One day the absurdity of the almost universal human belief in the slavery of other animals will be palpable. We shall then have discovered our souls and become worthier of sharing this planet with them.” -Martin Luther King Jr (1926-1968), American civil rights movement.

    Just please tell me, if you torture and dog or a cat, for example kicking them or punching them, do they not suffer in the same way you would? Or is there suffering not as “valid” as yours or that of a cow or pig?

    “The question is not, Can they reason? nor, Can they talk? but, Can they suffer?” -Jeremy Bentham (1748 -1832), philosopher.

    I guess it’s the idea that you think it’s comparing animals to black Africans, or animals to women, or animals to disabled people, or animals to children. But it’s the fact we all know that they are equal, therefore the only comparison is between humans and non-human animals – nothing else.

    You talk about intellect and reason, but its the very concept that some people who are disabled unfortunately have neither of these, and children infact gain and improve these qualities over time, but they are still granted rights, because it’s regardless of these qualities.

    Please realise that humans don’t have rights based on their intellect and reason, otherwise we’d all have a different proportion of rights like we used to just a decade ago.

    Humans have rights based on their biological make-up, being human, nothing else – to base the idea of human rights on anything else is infact a form of post-discrimination rather than anything else, as I briefed above.

    Or simply put; if a kid can’t reason with his parents and is far from intellectual… can we eat him? No! Because he’s human thats why!! It’s a right to life!!

  14. Whoops, sorry forgot to mention, link to suffragettes? They were some of the first anti-vivisectionists. For example between 1903-1910 with the Brown Dog affair, as pro-vivisectionists attacked suffragettes as they couldn’t see who else were the anti’s! This was one of the first links between the yet unsuccessful womens rights movement and the animal rights movement.

    See: wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_Dog_affair

    Many prisoners in the cause were vegetarian. Also in the modern movement more feminists are finding veganism because of the obvious link between the sexist diary industry raping female cows to keep them impregnated over years and years.

    Probably more directly though, the fact the mothers children are taking away from them just a few days after; to be killed for beef or raised in veal crates abroad. The suffering that females go through trying to find their kidnapped babies is a pain that any more can mother comprehend.

  15. You still haven’t given me your thoughts on antispe ballsing up the veggie pride march in France. See in my opinion that was out of order. In France there is a cultural bias against vegetarianism and veganism which that rally was a part of combating and bringing veggie/veganism into the mainstream and now antispe’s actions have tarred all people who choose not to eat animals with the loony brush.
    You’re not going to be able to convince me of the wrongness of meat eating, I have thought about it and have come to the conclusion that I really enjoy eating meat and that cheese is one of the greatest food products on the planet.
    I don’t have a problem with folk not following the same diet as me. That’s fine. I don’t have a problem with folk rescuing animals from intolerable conditions, that’s fine.
    What I do have a problem with is the co-option of another groups identity and the way that it will make the two groups appear linked when they have nothing in common. Antifa is an organisation of working class self defence, antispe has nothing to do with the class struggle. It is nothing more than an excuse for a bunch of kids to make themselves feel radical and wear black hoodies with funky looking patches.
    How do antispe’s actions contribute to the ‘liberation of all animals’ in the same way that an ALF liberation of battery chickens does?

  16. I’m not fully sure why you want “my” opinion over the veggie pride march? Why don’t you read some of Martin Luther King on non-violent civil disobedience? I agree with Martin, that NVDA is a justified tactic in order to bring about social change. Especially as he wanted to see the end of slavery to all animals – its pretty damn logicial step to take!! Only identical to the past 40 years of civil disobedience within the movement to be honest…

    I’m glad you have accepted that the only reason you have not stopped consuming animal products is because of the dependence you have on it. I guess the only irony would be that throughout history the only reason change has been delayed is because of so-called “dependencies”, such as the “lifestyle” of fox hunting or the financial gain of human slavery.

    I am also thoroughly glad you don’t base the rights of humans on intellect, as I personally found this very insulting to all disabled people who are unable to; reason, plan, solve problems, think abstractly, comprehend ideas and/or use language.

    “they have nothing in common.”

    Yes, I guess if you keep ignoring the quote from MLK then there is absoloutely nothing in common between the post-civil rights movement and the animal rights movement, apart from the fact they are also both “rights” movements that is.

  17. I ask for your opinion on the veggie pride thing as you are the owner/moderator of the antispe site.
    I don’t ‘depend’ on meat in my diet, in fact a lot of my meals are veggie/vegan but that has more to do with my wallet than my ethics. I enjoy eating meat as it tastes good.
    What the hell are you on about? The ‘lifestyle’ of fox hunting being kept because of people dependencies? The vast majority of people in this country, both city and country find bloodsports reprehensible. The reason it took so long to get rid of it was because it was a past time of the aristocracy not because anyone depended on it.
    And back to the Fance thing, why do you think that it was OK to disrupt a march that has been instrumental in bringing a veggie diet into the mainstream of french culture. The actions of antispe on that day push the notion of animal rights in France back into the realms of the loony fringe.
    Nor have you answered why antispe has appropriated the imagery of Antifa when antispe clearly has nothing to do with the class struggle or the defence of the working class?
    Oh and should you lot, however unlikely, achieve your goal of ‘freedom for all animals’ then how are we going to feed them and more to the point why should we when we could be using the grazing land taken up by them to feed starving people?

  18. With all due respect, if you are fundamentally opposed to hierarchy you should be vegan by now? or do you think that we should put ourselves before animals? Are some types of hierarchy OK and some not acceptable? Do you think sweat shops are OK because you “Like” new clothing? or was it not anarchism if you allow people to suffer?

    Sadly your last comment showed your lack of understanding of the production of meat and dairy. It is pretty obvious that you are unwilling to do any research to backup your comments.

    Clearly we don’t wish to see animals overrun the world, we don’t wish to see them bred for our use at all which will mean that certain (mutant) meat animals will cease to exist.

    The Antispe logo is based on the green anarchist flag which has been around for years where have you been? Thats like saying how dare Antifa nick the anarcho-syndicalist colours?

    I didn’t realise that Antifa was a brand name now?

  19. You seem to miss one fundamental point. Animals are not people. I have an understanding of the meat and dairy industry and many issues pertaining to ‘animal rights’ I was an active hunt sab for quite some time and was exposed to many arguments against meat eating.
    Not a single one of them though convinced me that animal liberation has any part in the class struggle. I do not need to do any research as like I said I have already heard it all before.
    Also you say that you wish to see ‘mutant’ animals cease to be, surely this would require the extermination of entire species? Hardly fitting with the antispe rhetoric now is it.
    And no, whilst the colour scheme of the antispe logo is taken from the nutter wing of anarchism the design is taken from the Antifa logo. The use of this logo and name implies some sort of a connection with anti-fascism of which there is none. Defending our communities against Fascism is practical and necessary to furthering the class struggle. All antispe does is make people feel better about themselves without actually moving us towards a better world.

    And yes Antifa is a brand name, as is ALF, Anarchist Federation, ELF, Class War etc…

  20. With third world grain being flown to this country to feed our livestock leaving millions to starve how can eating meat be anything other than a class issue?

    I did not mention the extermination of a species how can you be exterminated if you were never born? Most modern farm animals could not survive outside of the factory farm, I simply think they should no longer be bred to be killed?

    Last of all what the fuck is the “nutter wing of anarchism”? What the fuck will class struggle matter when you cant breath the air and the water you drink has so much mercury you cannot drink it?

    I consider all issues, green, class struggle, anti fash all to be of serious importance. You clearly cannot see beyond the end of your nose, how can respecting ALL life take us anywhere other than a better world??

    You have convinced me now you are a total moron.

  21. “With third world grain being flown to this country to feed our livestock leaving millions to starve how can eating meat be anything other than a class issue?”

    Millions starve because of the insanity of capitalist modes of production not because I eat a bacon butty every now and again.

    You did mention the extermination of entire species when you said:
    “we don’t wish to see them bred for our use at all which will mean that certain (mutant) meat animals will cease to exist.”
    So your plan is to sterilize entire species and allow them to die out, that smacks of genocide and eugenics to me and is far worse than rearing and slaughtering in as humane a way as possible which is what I would like to see.

    By ‘nutter wing’ I was referring to Anarcho-Primitivism as publicised by journals such as Green Anarchy and Anarchy:A Journal of Desire Armed.

    Like I have said I have no problem with folk choosing a vegan diet if they so wish nor with those taking action to liberate animals from intolerable conditions.

    I do however think that antispe is a fucking joke and object to its crass pilfering of Antifa’s imagery as the use of the logo and name implies a connection that is not there.

  22. You are totally right, I will show my support for capitalism today by purchasing a nice pair of Nike airs, fuck the sweat shops its not my fault I blame capitalist modes of production…

    I am REALLY confused… Are you actually implying that consumer choices don’t support capitalism?

    Call it extermination but surely that involves killing animals? I dont support that I support not raping animals to breed mutant fucking food animals that cannot survive without our constant pumping them full of antibiotics, steroids and growth hormones.

    Are you saying you would prefer to be born into a horrific world of torture and pain where death is the only thing you will ever hope for? I doubt it.

    Anarcho-Primitivism has fuck all to do with Green Anarchy, sure you could achieve the same aims by supporting both ideologies. Surely if Antispe was influenced by Anarcho-Primitivism they wouldn’t have a website? As for the logo? SO WHAT? Seriously is this what constitutes an important issue in supposed anarchist circles these days?

    Also to address your views on Foxhunting, most of the foxhunting crowd do it because they love the thrill of the hunt, I would bet that your diet has taken more lives in a more horrific manner than you local hunt has taken foxes in the past 30 years. What is the difference between hunting a fox for the thrill of the hunt and eating meat because “it taste good”.

  23. “Are you actually implying that consumer choices don’t support capitalism?”
    I’m implying that consumer boycotts have no affect upon capitalism, it just finds another product to market and another way of turning a profit through exploitation. Are you implying that capitalism can be reformed?

    I called it eugenics not extermination, look it up.

    I said that I would like it if the meat industry could be more humane and by the way how do you know what animals want or hope for? Anthropomorphism much?

    Anarcho-Primitivism and Green Anarchy are intertwined, hell the journal of that name is a primmo rag as was the UK version. Primmos use websites by the way and their falg is black and green.

    “As for the logo? SO WHAT?” Well I would object if a Fascist group used the circle A logo, and I do when groups such as the Nationalist Anarchists use it and use anarchist rhetoric. Not saying antispe are Fascists just that there is connection to the class struggle that Antifa is a part of. Well there is always that little issue of eugenics.

    Fox Hunting is a class issue as well as an AR issue. Its roots lie in the emergence of the middle class and their wish to emulate the ruling class.

    “Seriously is this what constitutes an important issue in supposed anarchist circles these days? ”
    No it’s a paragraph or two that I wrote on my blog.

    (edited to add) Oh and as for discussion in anarchist circles, the only time I have mentioned this wee conversation is when I chuckle to my flat mate that a vegan has just said they want to practice eugenics with regards to millions upon millions of animals. Hitler was a veggie eh?

  24. For a start I’m not talking of consumer boycotts I’m talking about choices I don’t believe. I don’t believe capitalism can be reformed but I believe our use of animals supports a capitalist system.

    If you get a chance check out “Making a killing – the political economy of animal rights” on AK press http://www.makingakillingbook.com

    To say animals don’t have basic interests shows your lack of understanding of animals. Of course animals fear pain and death. Christ have you never seen a scared animal before? Or do you subscribe to the belief that it is just “animal instinct” and they don’t feel or fear pain.

    Like I said, these animals would NOT exist in the first place if not for human beings. Eugenics is already happening with our “food animals” what do you think modern husbandry (or lack of) is?

    If a species cannot live by itself without human intervention then so be it.

    I agree that fox hunting is a class issue as well as an animal rights issue

    And for the record it is very very doubtful that Hitler was a veggie, unless cutting out red meat constituted vegetarianism? It is widely believed that vegetarianism during this time period in Germany simply meant someone who only ate meat occasionally. Either way this is a bit of a misnomer, would you like be to make reference to some (the majority of) genocidal omnivores for you?

  25. The Hitler thing wasn’t meant to be serious.
    The thing is that food animals exist now and I believe that they will continue to exist in a post revolutionary society but that the condition that they are kept in would be vastly improved, after all the reason that the meat industry is so grim is because profit cares little for anything but itself.
    Stating that your diet is political, i.e. anti-capitalist makes it a consumer boycott. If you are vegan for ethical reasons that is more valid than saying it is anti-capitalist or has an affect on the meat industry. Also were the majority of people in the UK to go veggie then we would see the mass slaughter of millions of animals as they would have no commercial value.
    The buying of vegetables and soya products still fits in nicely with capitalists, hey it’s an entire market nowadays.
    That said I would also like to see more research into growing meat in labs so that us omnivores could get our flesh fix without the killing. If such a thing is actually possible.

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